Curse

Bugeater · Feb 02, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

In a failed hijack attempt of the nuking thread (nice save, JR-), a damage necro build was presented using Dark Pact and Touch of Agony with Balth Spirit for energy and AotL + B. Renewal for survivability. The presenter asserted that this build did good damage and was a viable alternative to a warrior front line. The primary response was that this build has been run before and doesn't generate as much fear as a basic warrior build. I agreed but wanted to know why so I crunched some numbers.

With 15 Blood, Pact deals 48 and Touch deals 58. Without any 20% recharge item, the fastest you can spit them out is: Pact,Touch,Pact,Touch,Pact. At the end of that chain is a second or so of recharge before they're both available and you can start again. The chain takes just under 10 seconds on a dummy (9.25 theoretically) and does 260 damage. We can all agree that 26 DPS is pretty bad. Assuming you have a 20% weapon and focus and further assuming that the changing recharge doesn't screw up your timing, you could theoretically get up to 37.44 DPS, still below a warrior with only frenzy (around 40 DPS, depending on weapon).

The number that the original poster had was around 52 DPS (and I don't know where that came from, but I'll run with it for a minute). I agree that 52 DPS is respectable - better than a warrior with no skills. But this build is at it's maximum potential while a warrior is just getting started. When our 40 DPS axe warrior puts 2 attack skills on his bar, now he's around 49 DPS plus deep wound. While you can't equate the effects of deep would directly to DPS, if a deep wound does 90 points of hp reduction, the warrior is now pushing 60 DPS. And we haven't even considered the sizable damage that can be added by support skills (Orders being foremost).

When this build was presented, it also claimed that it was sustainable DPS. This is a ludicris assertion. The skill chain I listed would cost 25 energy. If it takes you 10 seconds to cast, you're losing 1.16 energy per second. That means you'll go from 50 energy to 0 in 43 seconds, with the recharge items it would be even faster. Balths Spirit does not trigger on sacs so it's pretty much a wasted slot unless you're getting targeted.

Since this build can't come near competing with a warrior for damage, I won't get into how much more fragile it is than an armored warrior.

mortalis doleo · Feb 02, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

i'm pretty sure that that 52 dps came from a combination of the aformentioned skills and "dark aura".
i also think balth spirit is triggered from the dark aura damage.

an AotL necro is a way to switch the warrior out, because the damage that the necro is doing is AoE, and the single character damage is ~100 per skill. this is a great way to add pressure to your build...

JR · Feb 02, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

The Necromancer in this case suffers from the same problem the Elementalist does. It relies solely on skills for damage. During cooldown periods and waiting for regen you may aswell just do laps around the map, while a warrior will still be dishing out consistant high DPS all the time.

Not to mention how foolish it is to be putting your casters in melee range of targets.

Bugeater · Feb 02, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Thanks Mort, that's exactly what I was forgetting from the deleted post. So instead of the 26 DPS that I calculated, with D.Aura you'd have about 46.5, so 52 with two 20% recharge items actually seems slightly low.

I'm not near game right now so assume the D.Aura hp loss does trigger Balths. If you figure in energy costs from AotL, D.Aura, and Balths, you have a 1.83 energy per second deficit. That means you could last for 28 seconds if you started with 50 energy. I didn't factor in B.Renewal to make up for your sacs and D.Aura damage.

If you slow down your casting to a sustainable rate, your DPS drops from 52 to about 14.

Not to mention that you've used 5 skill slots (6 with Renewal) as opposed to a warrior's 3. I still don't see it as a viable alternative to a warrior's damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The Necromancer in this case suffers from the same problem the Elementalist does. It relies solely on skills for damage. During cooldown periods and waiting for regen you may aswell just do laps around the map, while a warrior will still be dishing out consistant high DPS all the time.

Not to mention how foolish it is to be putting your casters in melee range of targets.

yes

Carinae · Feb 02, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Ok, putting a caster on the front lines is risky anyway, but lets forget that for a moment.

1) You are forgetting Dark Aura, which does AoE damage when you sacrifice. This triggers when you do DP, ToA, and Blood Renewal.

2) You end up doing about 100 points of AoE Shadow damage (ignores armor) per attack skill (50 if you do Blood Renewal). That's not bad at all for a 5 energy spell.

3) On the defensive side, you can run AL70 and Aura of the Lich, which halves ALL damage, including sacrifices. AotL also reduces your maximum health by half, which again reduces the sacrifice by half. Regen is now twice as effective, as well.

I'm not arguing against the warrior, that's probably the better option, but the Necro option isn't ridiculous.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 02, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Actually, the last time I remember... sacrifising health did not count as damage.

Same goes as life stealing isn't a "damage" for the game either, hence protective spirit doesn't block them.

Balthazar's spirit is triggerless here.

I may test it to refresh memory, but if someone would like to prove me wrong, welcome to do so.

Carinae · Feb 02, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Aura of the Lich does halve sacrifices, regardless of the fact that they aren't 'damage'. This appears to be by-design.

Bugeater · Feb 02, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Actually, the last time I remember... sacrifising health did not count as damage.

That's entirely correct, but we're specifically saying the "damage" from Dark Aura which is an effect of the skill, not a sac cost of it. I can tell you with certainty that Pact and Touch do not trigger Balths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'm not arguing against the warrior, that's probably the better option, but the Necro option isn't ridiculous.

I'm not sure the build is ridiculous. I like the aspect that this build can come out with a fairly decent punch then tapers off. But this is only really true if you can hit a lot of splash damage. It would be ridiculous to replace warriors with this build.

mortalis doleo · Feb 02, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

lots of build carry duel gale warriors, one of which can easilly be switched with an AotL build.

the AotL build may have a lower defence (although that is arguable...), it's attacks do a larget amount of damage in the short run (the warrior may keep attacking and occasionally deal that ~100 adrenaline spike, but the necro does that every couple of secs, ignoring armor, wards and enchantements of any kind).

if you are running a balanced build (not a spike build), the AotL necro is a great way to up the pressure, causing high damage to all enemies in his range when he is casting.

the only thing this guy is suseptible (sp???) to, and this is no joke, is to rend enchantements (completely neutralizes this build for ~20 seconds).

PS:
the necro could drop the B renewal and have a monk use mending on him (IM JOKING DONT KILL ME!!!)

Carinae · Feb 02, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortalis doleo

the only thing this guy is suseptible (sp???) to, and this is no joke, is to rend enchantements (completely neutralizes this build for ~20 seconds).

Well, you still have AL70+ and get healed when AotL and BR end, so you'd be at full health if you got Rended.

IOW, it's not like Rending a 55 build. You'd still have a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortalis doleo

the necro could drop the B renewal and have a monk use mending on him (IM JOKING DONT KILL ME!!!)

Aww, I get a kick out of hurting my opponents while healing myself!

I get the same thrill from VG/VT.

Don't forget the boosted regeneration value of AotL. It effectively doubles your regen cap to 20 pips, or 40 health per second! That alone makes you hard to kill.

Ristaron · Feb 02, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortalis doleo

the only thing this guy is suseptible (sp???) to, and this is no joke, is to rend enchantements (completely neutralizes this build for ~20 seconds).

rend enchantments, drain enchantment, desecrate enchantments, shatter enchantment, inspired enchantment... lots of things can screw over the build.

Luddendorf · Feb 02, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

This guy is susceptible to moving and wouldnt be nearly as useful as another warrior.

SaintGreg · Feb 02, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

AoTL makes your regeneration do more, but it also means that a bunch of degen will hurt alot more too, considering the amount of degen usually in tombs, with trappers, hexers, etc I don't think you would survive that well even with blood renewal. We used to run an AotL monk build with consume and against the unworthies if that guy got hit with life transfer, by the time we could get it off we would just go damn that hurt. It might seem great when healing breeze keeps you alive while getting hammered by three warriors, but when it goes wrong and you are at -10 pips health degen you will be cursing.

Not to mention that even though you take half damage which means that the % of your health in terms of damage taken stays the same, the life stealing damage from a vampiric mod or Order of the Vampire hits you twice as hard as before in terms of % health. Ranger spikes would have fun killing you alot.

Glasswalker · Feb 08, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Okay, I usually say, experiment and find out for yourself. Therefore, I get an itch everytime someone says definitively it must be this way, or else. On the other hand I don't like to post an imperfected build, but it took me 2 hours to get people to join this PUG, and people left when we were defeated.

Last night I spent 2 hours in TotPK with the following build:

Necro 1:
Aura of the Lich {e}
Dark Aura
Dark Pact
Touch of Agony
Blood Renewal
Blood Ritual
Consume Corpse
Order of Pain

Necro 2:
Aura of the Lich {e}
Blood Renewal
Drak Aura
Touch of Agony
Dark Pact
Blood Ritual
Signet of Agony
Consume Corpse

The only difference between these two is OoP and SoA.

-------- Seconds -- AoE -- Direct -- Target
Necro 1: ---13 --- 310 --- 224 --- 534
Necro 2: --~13 -- 216 -- 349* -- 565*
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Total: -- ~13 -- 526 -- 573* -- 1099*

*Damage Necro 2 was responsible for was difficult to calculate because OoP applied to other Rangers.

Our team consisted of N/R (me) N/Me Mo/E Mo/R R/W R/Mo R/E and E/Me

Order of Pain and R/E were in conflict because he carried Conjure Flame, but he also carried Pin Down, which was very useful.

One Monk was pure protection, the other was Healing, but brought Wards.

One Ranger was a trapper (plus conditions), and Trapper + Wards was very useful. Poison + fire + cripple.

R/Mo carried Light of Dwayna, which saved our donkey twice, and was quite useful at other times.

My Order of Pain added 17 damage/attack.

We held Halls for 3 rounds last night, then an EoE bomb got us. We were so concentrated on killing the other team, we didn't expect them to kill themselves.

I didn't get the screenshots because I expected us to go longer (I've held HoH for longer than that before) but several players left. We tried to replace them for another ~20 minutes, then I gave up. I'm very bad with names, but hopefully my teammates will come forward with some screens of this?

Weaknesses:
-Rend Enchantments destroyed this build.
-No interupts. I don't like Melee without interupts.
-No room for Res Signet. I would love input on that. I could add it to one by removing Signet of Agony, but that character was more likely to die (necro 2 needed the Res Signet).
-CC was very erratic. Sometimes I was pulled out of Healing Range, and occasionally both of us needed this heal.
-Sometimes the enemy didn't focus well and we fought over CC. Big deal except energy was wasted.
-One other thing -- someone used Putrid Explosion on us, which beat the CC, caused damage, and stopped our main self-heal + Energy Regen.

Strengths:
-Damage Ignores Armor. Damage was invariable dependant upon enemy.
-Added AoE to Every (sacrifice) strike, even heals.
-Blind? Peh! Degen? Whatever. You had to really stack it before it became an issue because beginning health was 400+
-Enchantment removal other than Rend. There was only one team that brought Rend. Desecrate hurt, but was healable. Other removals just got rid of Blood Renewal, which caused healing. And with a 10 second refresh, it was right back on. Some of them did a bit of damage as well, but it wasn't any big deal.

Comments? Oh, one run through the skills took roughly 13 seconds, and sometime would kill 1, 2 or 3 depending upon how bunched up they were, and how many targets we aimed for. With the energy from Consume Corpse and the extra put in Soul Reaping, there was no problem there. I was at full after a complete cycle. Skills were also ready except for Signet of Agony.

I would improve this build by trading out the Ranger's Conjure Flame for Frozen Soil, and find some way of puting a Res Sig on both Necros. Plague Touch wouldn't hurt either.

[EDIT] Fixed table positioning and changed some wording slightly.

Cold · Feb 09, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

1 e-surge mesmer and your necro is... well, dead

Symbol · Feb 09, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I was the presenter on the original thread. I still believe the build does (very) good damage. I no longer believe that it is a viable as a wholesale replacement for warriors because much of the benefit of the AoTL disappears when your necros are out of healing range.

Just a quick note on damage and energy efficiency:

At Blood: 16, Death: 11 each dark pact does 89 damage, each touch of agony does 99 damage.

If you alternate touch + pact the bottleneck is touch's recharge. 36% of the time you'll get a fast recharge trigger where the recharge drops to 1.5 or .75 seconds, which is enough to spam without any dead time, aka a touch + pact will take 3.25 seconds 36% of the time, and 3.75 seconds otherwise, hence the average length is 3.57 seconds, or 52.7 dps.

You could get it higher by not rigidly alternating the two, though calculating exactly how much is non-trivial.

And Balthazar's Aura doesn't trigger on sac damage, but it DOES trigger on dark aura damage. So you lose a pip of regen from maintaining it, but you gain at least 2/3.57 = .56 E/sec just from the touch + pact sacrifices, and that's on top of any other damage you might take.

So the energy deficit is some ~1.24 E/sec assuming no SR triggers and assuming you never take damage from outside sources.

Bugeater · Feb 09, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

After running this build for a while I think I pretty much agree with Symbol. There's no doubt that you can throw out respectable damage. Against single foes it's on par with a buffed warrior against clumps it can be devastating.

A couple snags that I ran into when running this:
If people were dying, energy wasn't even a consideration. With minimal Soul Reaping I could usually power myself. If I got low Consume easily made up. But if it was a drawn-out fight I became pretty worthless around the time I had to start recasting my auras. Overall energy management was unreliable. With a "typical" necro build, when people start dying you cast more spells since you have the energy. With this build I'm always casting like crazy so if the energy isn't there, I'm pretty much shut down.

Timing was hard to get down. When energy wasn't a problem, I had Blood Renewal every 10 seconds, Dark Aura every 30 and Lich every 40+. With the two spammable damage spells, that's a lot to get down. The first 20 seconds or so of combat is generally pretty basic, but then the different expiration times start to screw things up.

Kiting really killed my damage. Without the speed buffs and knock-downs that warriors often have, the only damage I was doing doing is with Pact (and Vamp if I brought it). I couldn't hit my touch attacks and aoe was gone. A good kiter really made me feel worthless.

Rend or multiple dis-enchants murdered me. Even with AotL, I was a little more fragile than an armored warrior, if I lost that I was a full-blown squishy. Desecrate Enchants also puts a good hurt on me.

Overall I think this build could definately add to a team built to fit it in, but it's really not as flexible or durable as a warrior.

glountz · Feb 09, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

This build rocks, but is easily counterable. Anyway, not many teams are prepared to fight Saccers.

After having tried it:

Saccer's build DOES splash a lot more damage than any warrior's one (only counting numbers). But the core strenght of this build lies in the lack of damage mitigation.
When I run my warrior in GVG, it's INCREDIBLE the warrior hate I can take before landing a single hit (and that's why I wasn't convinced by Ensign demonstration, whatever, no more on this). Blinded/Crippled to death, quick spammable prot enchants (guardian, RoF). It really gives the warrior a hard time, and even if I'm healed relatively quickly from Blindness, the highly spammable prot spells like guardian don't suffer a lot from enchant stripping.

With this build, the targeted prot monk is dead if catched. Blind and enchants make you laugh, and as your damage come from two different sources (D Aura + Sac skills), it's merely impossible to mitigate, from stances to Prot Spirit.
His weaknesses are great, tough. Rend Enchants and E-denial skills are deadly.
Any single enchant removal is easily countered, as your cover enchant (BR) is highly spammable and heals you when ending, but, still...
Degen was never an issue. You can fight it with your unnatural regen, and monks on your team are here in emergency situations (I find this build even better because you do not die as easily as your opponents could think, giving your monk a better handling of pressure). Deep wound was not an issue either, it simply fragilize you but still increase the effect of your health regen.

This build MUST be ran with high movement control characters, such as a Crippling shot rangers. If the opposite team is the best at movement control (by having himself Crip shot rangers or Burden Mesmers or KD -gale or not- warriors), you will be sure to loose past the first surprise you made to this team with your high damage output.
So, if you loose the movement battle, you will loose the entire battle.

Anyway, the tendency when fighting teams is more to bring warrior hate than necro's hate, so this build can win several battles, even if it's not the ultimate uber build that will change GW gaming world.

Try it, it's a funny alternative.

EDIT: Bring Always a +recharge blood skills wand/staff. With the high spammability of your blood spells, it is often triggered and improve greatly your overall effectiveness.

Symbol · Feb 09, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

If you have two necros running this build you could always take blood ritual to buff each other up when one is low.

Glasswalker · Feb 09, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I see now that I had the damage from the two necros reversed. But you probably noticed that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYMBOL

If you have two necros running this build you could always take blood ritual to buff each other up when one is low.

You will notice both necros listed in my build had Blood Ritual.

This was the key I was missing in previous attempts with this build. We actually kept it on pretty close to full time. A Necro with 7 pips of Energy Regen has little to worry about. I dumped my extra in SR mostly because I had nowhere constructive to put it.

My Energy bar looked a bit like a 55 monk's health bar. It was also often the cover enchantment by default rather than planning. And the 7 pips helped to cover the cost of spamming a 10 pt skill. Note that it sets off Dark Aura.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cold

1 e-surge mesmer and your necro is... well, dead

Not as bad as you would think really. We did hit one, and he became a priority target quickly, but with AotL on the damage listed in the skill is effectively cut in half, and with 5 Health regen and 7 Energy regen, we made it up far quicker than his skills would recharge. Maybe if he had Arcane Echo or something. Energy Burn, Energy Surge, then Power Leak (now [i]that one[\i] hurt!), I think. But he was dead before any of them recharged. I also got hit with Spirit Shackles and Empathy several times, which just meant no Bow with OoP (I carry a no-req Short Bow with a maxed Enchantment mod BTW. That in itself throws a lot of people -- A Necro running into melee range with a bow

Noob City.). Backfire would have killed the build though. We will have to get good hex removal for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

This build MUST be ran with high movement control characters, such as a Crippling shot rangers. If the opposite team is the best at movement control (by having himself Crip shot rangers or Burden Mesmers or KD -gale or not- warriors), you will be sure to loose past the first surprise you made to this team with your high damage output.
So, if you loose the movement battle, you will loose the entire battle.

This must be emphisized. We had to rely on Pin Down, but all three Rangers had it. Our E/Me also was awesome at movement control. On our end we used Consume Corpse, but of course that only helped if there was one where we wanted to go. One skill I wanted on my bar but didn't have room for was Plague Sending. If I can't hit my primary target because I'm Crippled, I would use this, and still get the AoE damage because I'm sacrificing. This build is still a work in progress, I may find room for it later. I would also like to better define the other six members of the team.

The biggest drawback of this build is having to wait 2 hours to get people to try it out. I will probably be trying again this weekend though.